Tuesday, April 30, 2013

Demormocratting: Why I'm Liberal

A game where everyone guessed what political party the person that runs a blog called "Demormocrat" belongs to would not last very long. Whenever people find out I'm a registered Democrat they inevitably ask a certain question, regardless of their own views: "Are your parents Democrat?" Sometimes they ask a variant of it: "Were you raised a Democrat?"


I always answer something like this: "My parents and I often don't agree on politics--even though Dad is registered Democrat--but they raised me to think for myself. So I do. I research out the party platforms and candidates and issues and decide for myself. I just happen to most often agree Democrat." By the way, it's getting annoying how often people say something to effect of "I research the issues and make my own decisions" because it's usually used in the context of assuming that my ideas are dictated by my party instead of the other way around. It's condescending and moot.

One really bad thing we do in our society is we stereotype people based on their party affiliation. People assume that because you're a Republican that you must be totally anti-gun-control and we know that that's not true based on the recent votes on the failed gun legislation. They also assume that because you're a Democrat you must be pro-abortion when that is also untrue, as discussed later. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by people that my views are of the devil or otherwise wrong by people who didn't even ask me what my views are, only knew that I'm a registered Democrat.

In this essay-post-thing, I'm going to go issue by issue--at least most of the major divisional issues--and briefly explain my views in the nutshell--maybe nut-case--version. All of these could be entire books. All I'll include here is the very basic view and the fundamental philosophy behind it. If applicable, I've included scriptures or other references for those of you who might say that it's impossible to be practicing LDS and belief as I do. I try to not legitimize my politics with religion. But if someone comes at me with the religion offense, I will use the religion defense.

These are in no particular order.

Gun Control--Democrat

I recognize that the 2nd Amendment states a basic right for American citizens, specifically for the purpose that if the federal government ever invaded a state, the state would have the means to raise a militia to fight them off. I also recognize that--while I do not engage in it--hunting is an integral part of certain cultures.

However, I do not side with the NRA or the more conservative factions of the Republican party on this issue. Their arguments tend to be along the lines of "Don't take away my guns." No legislation is being pushed to take away all the guns of all the citizens except guns specifically designed for killing lots of people at once and if such legislation were to come up, I would not support it. The recent legislation has been for licensure--among other things--of firearm owners. Why not license guns? We license marriages, divorces, adoptions, businesses, banks, vendors, drivers, cars, protesters and a whole lot of other things, many of them specifically mentioned in the Bill of Rights. We license hunting. But we don't license guns.

Immigration--Democrat

I'm pro-immigration. There's no reason any group of people shouldn't be allowed to come here and become citizens. There's not a person in this country that isn't descended from immigrants. Well, maybe a few Native Americans. Sure there are problems in this country that get compounded by "undocumented residents" being here. But as it stands now, we claim to welcome the "huddled masses, yearning to breathe free" except the ones from Mexico. We accept refugees from Africa and Asia and Europe with open arms. The immigrants from Cuba that actually make it here are given instant amnesty. This is all very good. But let's extend that to Mexicans, too. "But all the others are fleeing war, poverty and Communism!" And the Mexicans aren't fleeing anything?

As a side note, the Church has many members that are "illegal immigrants." I personally know some. Families are our focus. The Church supports any legislation that it feels will keep families as intact as possible.

Gay Marriage--Libertarian

I mentioned earlier that we license marriages. Why? I define a marriage as a relationship. I don't need the government giving their stamp of approval on my marriage. It shouldn't affect the taxes I pay or the benefits I receive. I'm not for the legalization of gay marriage. I'm for the delegalization of all marriage. By the way, the official LDS Church statement does say that they recognize that members will disagree with them on this issue and as long as it is a difference of perspective and not a difference of doctrine, it's okay. My activity in the Church will not be affected by it at all.

By the way, the church has always backed legislation that supports equal rights in housing, employment and health care and everything else--except marriage obviously--and is very much opposed to any bullying of any kind for any reason, contrary to popular belief. The rest of the country seems to think that we're all very anti-gay. No, we're not. The church is just opposed to legally--or morally--changing the definition of what marriage is.

Civil Rights--Democrat or Socialist

Nobody for any reason should be given different rights under the law from any other person. We're all Children of God, human beings with dignity, people, etc. I firmly believe that in the eyes of God--or evolution, whatever--"all [people] were created equal" and even if we weren't, we should be treated that way by the government, in the workplace and in our lives. This includes everyone: gays and straights, blacks and whites and browns, Christians and Muslims and Jews--or all three--and Hindus, children and adults, men and women, natural-born and immigrant, everyone. 2 Nephi 26:33

Abortion--Moderate

I value life. I value women's rights. These are not mutually exclusive.

I do believe that life begins before birth, but I don't necessarily believe that it begins at conception. So where does it become "murder?" I don't know. But I do know that we already have a legal standard for what "alive" means, though it's only employed at the other end of life. (If you didn't already know, when hearts are transplanted, they have to be pumping. You can imagine how somebody freaked out about that when it become common practice. Legislators were faced with an interesting question: how can we measure life?) Crazy as it sounds, we measure the "brain-waves" (I don't know the science of it) to determine when a person is "brain-dead" before we harvest their organs. Why don't we apply that to within the womb?

But I know it's not that simple. I do believe that basically a woman should have total control over her own body, including her reproductive system. However, even an unconscious decision is still a decision. A girl slips up and gets pregnant, she still chose that even if it wasn't sought out. A girl who was raped did not choose that. I also believe that women who go through abortions do not go through them easily or "for fun." I imagine that it's going to be hard, no matter the situation. Still--and I echo most Democrat leaders, Clinton and Obama included--adoption ought to be considered before abortion. This whole paragraph may have seemed very wishy-washy but I promise it's not. Or at least I don't think it is. I don't know.

One more thought: we can't make men biologically responsible for carrying children. But we can make them financially and legally responsible.

By the way, the Church's stance and Obama's are eerily similar (though the reasons and solutions vary slightly). Basically, the woman should seek the help of her spiritual leader before seeking an abortion.

So yes, I'm pro-life--just like LDS and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid--but moderately so.

Death Penalty and Prisons--Democrat

I firmly believe that a person can change and--more than that--can become a benefit to society, no matter where they've been or what they've gone through. Prisons--and actually I echo Joseph Smith's presidential platform--really should be "correctional institutions" or schools for learning a trade and leadership and life skills, albeit with armed guards. If society locks away or kills a person, they eliminate the possibility of any good that that particular person could do. And never underestimate the power of a person who has come around halfway to hell and back.

There's a lot of scriptural backing for this one--as well as a lot pro-death penalty--so I'll just stick with my favorite one: John 8:7

Welfare and Universal Healthcare--Democrat

Yes, I believe in an individual's responsibility to be able to take care of themself. But I also know that sometimes that becomes impossible for any number of reasons. Don't say they bring it upon themselves. You can't know that. (Mosiah 4:17-18)


Also--for those of you Mormons reading this--how do you claim that all people can and should be able to sustain themselves and pull themselves up from the bootstraps from any place and belong to a Church with such an extensive welfare program and preaches welfare from the pulpit and whose holy writ makes a point of discussing class warfare throughout its text? That really is a curiosity question, not a sarcastic rhetorical one. Please answer.

Yes, of course the system isn't perfect. Yes, there are people that take advantage of it. Nobody disagrees that it needs fixing. But to claim that it needs to be gotten rid of completely is a bad idea. When people can't provide for themselves and the government can't or won't help, private helpers step in. Sometimes these are churches and I laud their efforts. Often these "private helpers" are cartels and gangs. That's why the gangs are so prevalent in poorer areas, that's why Pablo Escobar and the like were so loved in Medellin, that's why the Mafia became so powerful during the Depression, that's why that old lady after the economy collapsed was caught with literally a truckload of marijuana. Figure this one: society benefits from society benefiting.

Yes, having a well-paying job is the ideal. But the ideal isn't always achieved, despite our best efforts.


Domestic Violence--Democrat

No domestic violence should be legal. All of it should be illegal and punished. Period.

War and Militarization and Foreign Relations--Democrat or Green

I already said, I value all life. I value it a lot. I've never fought in a war and of the wars my country has been in, I've only seen bits and pieces that float through the news. I can't say that I know firsthand that war is a terrible thing and I can't say that I can imagine what it's like. But that doesn't illegitimize my beliefs. I'd rather just not find out at all.

The Book of Mormon talks a lot about war--the second half of the Book of Alma and just about all of the Book of Ether are both full of comic-book detail war stories--and not all of it is negative. Some of the greatest prophets were also military leaders and there's many great quotes that are pro-war ("The Title of Liberty"). I say this because this is one issue that I can see the other side of the argument and I know how an active member of the Church could be pro-war.

The scriptures talk about justified reasons for going to war and for a brief period, the Church sent soldiers instead of missionaries. But that does not mean I have to agree with the nation's opting for violence. Violence--obviously--leads to death and hurt, often of innocent people. Diplomacy should always be sought first.

I also firmly believe that we can and should create a Global Community. I don't think it will happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Environmentalism--Democrat or Green

We could get into Mormon cosmology about the Earth--note the capitalization--and Creation, but some things are too sacred to be shared in such a public forum where they could easily be accessed and ridiculed. Basically, we believe we--humans, Adam's descendents--are charged by God to take care of the earth because it would be really awkward in heaven if we didn't. Just kidding, that's not why.

I believe we need to take care of the earth for many reasons and the government should be hard on corporations that pollute and should support measures to make energy more eco-friendly and affordable, but the one that I would use in an argument is that we should take care of our planet because it's the only one we have right now. If we're going to breathe this air, let's not put obscene amounts of COx in it. If we're going to drink this water, let's not dump sewage and industrial crap in it.

As far as species diversity goes, I'm not in favor of saving the seal pups because they're "cute." I'm in favor of saving them because it's the right thing to do. So what if they don't serve any purpose to humans now? That doesn't mean they're not going to in the future and that's a bad qualification for letting something live.

Global warming: why does it matter? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen. That's what everybody has been saying since the beginning. Whether or not it's real, we still ought to take care of our earth.

Marijuana--Democrat or Libertarian

Why not have pot legal? I'm not going to smoke it, any more than I'm going to drink legal alcohol or smoke legal tobacco. In fact, let's tax it and make some money off of it. Heaven knows our government can use some more of that.

But this doesn't mean that we should lower our standards for drug abuse and driving while intoxicated or that companies shouldn't be allowed to drug-check. Actually, the opposite. Let's raise the punishments for violations while gaining revenue off of legal usage. That isn't dishonest. It's smart.

I had a friend once tell me that we shouldn't legalize marijuana because it takes away people's agency and the availability to think for themselves. The obvious counterargument was that so does alcohol, tobacco, over-the-counter drugs, coffee, etc.--basically the whole Word of Wisdom--to which she said we ought to outlaw all of those, too. And I just couldn't argue with that. I'd never met anyone that wanted the Prohibition back. I've since thought it through and decided that next time--isn't that how it goes?--I'll say: "So you want to limit someone's agency to choose to limit their own agency?" And that'll get 'em.

For the record, I am not in favor of legalizing meth or other such "scary" drugs. Call me a child of the media, but those "not even once" ads scare the living daylights out of me. Those drugs create violence. Marijuana usually mellows the user out.


Education--Not Sure

I'm not sure any party really has a good answer to education. I would say Socialist but then somebody would start ranting about how socialist education brainwashes children, as if they themselves weren't educated by free, socialized education. So this is what I believe, you tell me what party you think my views best match. I will not touch on Luna Laws or any other policy because--as I try to always say before an argument--I cannot argue policy, only ideology. Good policy will mirror and try to bring about ideology.

Education is something that the Church really stresses. A well-educated person will be a better father or mother than they would otherwise be and can better be an influence for good in the world. Wouldn't it be great if our government and society viewed it the same way?

Education is how culture permeate itself. A culture can be defined--not created or influenced by those these do do that too--by five basic and interwoven things: language, social events, philosophies, arts and sciences. Language and arts and sciences should be taught by experienced and high-performing teachers. Religion and philosophy--including and especially government--should not be preached in a public school but should be presented in an open and honest way, explaining the basics of ideologies and giving students the opportunity to discover more for themselves. Schools should put on social events and opportunities for students to mingle and get to know each other. Knowing social skills is important to becoming a functioning member of society. And this is coming from the nerdy band kid who didn't go to his senior prom. Administration and teachers' unions shouldn't fight but should work together to accomplish what is best for the students.

And education ought to be available to everyone. Tax-supported schools and scholarships are a good way to go. Every member of society benefits from having an educated populace so all of society ought to contribute to educating that populace.

As far as merit-based pay, requiring online classes and the like, all I can say is "I don't know." I can see the pros and cons of both sides of the issues. I'm not sure there is a one-size fits all answer. But I can say this, that nothing can replace a healthy teacher-student relationship for creating an atmosphere for effective learning and taking money away from teachers' salaries for having the newest and shiniest toys and technology is not a good idea.

Well, I'm done with my rant for now. I know I only touched on a relatively small amount of issues. Tell me if anything seems in opposition to what my religion teaches. I'd love to hear it and debate it. 
 

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27 comments:

  1. Immigration:

    I agree. What I take issue with is the idea that it's a singularly Democratic ideal. Libertarians support immigration, as well, not only for humanitarian reasons, but for economic reasons as well.

    Gay marriage:

    VERY much agree. I support tax equality--why have marriage in the tax code at all? Why license marriage? And I don't think this runs counter to the Church's position at all, as the Church doesn't oppose rights already established for domestic partnerships in California (including probate, hospitalization, housing etc. etc. etc.). :)

    Civil rights:

    Again, strongly agree. I'm not sure that we agree regarding affirmative action, however--that strikes me as making minorities "more equal" a la "Animal Farm." I don't believe in affirmative action (preference given to minorities in anything based on their minority status), I believe in equality before the law and am opposed to workplace discrimination based on race, nationality, gender, etc. I don't see this as a singularly Democratic thing, though. Libertarians and Republicans believe in equality before the law.

    Abortion:

    I'm pro-life, support adoption as an alternative to abortion, and am not convinced that abortion is justifiable based on the body-ownership argument. Actions bear consequences, which are immutable.

    Death penalty and prisons:

    Agree.

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  2. Welfare and Universal Healthcare:

    I believe in helping people. What I don't believe in is forcing others to help people. When the government taxes the haves to give to the have-nots, no matter how noble its intentions, it's no longer charity and therefore no longer falls under the injunctions of both Christ and King Benjamin to care for the needy. Neither King Benjamin nor Christ taught that in order to care for the needy we should set up a system based on involuntary contribution of funds through taxation, ridden with waste and inefficiency that incentivizes those it's supposed to give a hand up to to instead delay returning to self-reliance and rely on the system. Rather, Christ and King Benjamin taught that we each, as individuals, have the responsibility to care for the needy.

    The Church's welfare system is inspired of God and doesn't create dependency because in order to receive help, those it benefits are required to work for that help. According to Pres. Heber J. Grant--who organized the Church's welfare program--the government should be the LAST place anyone turns to for support (you seem to indicate by your statement that it should be the first and that if it can't help, those in need should then turn to churches, private charities, and family).

    Defending a system of universal healthcare and of government welfare from a gospel perspective is fruitless if one doesn't understand the basic eternal principles behind the teachings of Christ, etc. regarding caring for the needy. What it comes down to is individual responsibility. A system of coercion like ours is based in principles advocated by the Adversary in the premortal war in heaven.

    Gangs, incidentally, almost always form as the result of drugs, which is why I support decriminalizing drugs (not legalization, necessarily, but decriminalization). Since the end of Prohibition, there seem to be a serious lack of shady characters dressed in trenchcoats offering passersby shots of 140 proof liquor. That's because alcohol is legal and available in well-lit places (and, to your point, it's regulated and taxed), making the formation of cartels and gangs around alcohol trafficking both fruitless and stupid.

    Domestic violence:

    I agree, though I don't see how that's a singularly Democratic position.

    War, militarization, and Foreign Relations:

    War is generally best avoided, I agree. I don't think the US should enter any entangling foreign alliances, however, echoing the wisdom of George Washington in his Farewell Address. That being said, I am not opposed to having a strong (voluntary) military force in case of foreign invasion and other justifiable reasons for war. I agree with Pres. Kimball in saying that we've become a war-like people--that's the kind of thing George Washington wanted to prevent by entering foreign alliances.

    Environmentalism:

    Absolutely, we need to care for Earth. However, regardless of whether or not climate change is anthropogenic, I don't see government action concerning the reduction of CO2 "solving" the issue. The only thing that could possibly avert the gigantic catastrophe predicted by the likes of Al Gore is complete cessation of economic activity and a return to pre-Industrial Revolution means of production (and global population). I don't like subsidies, either. They're a waste of money.

    Marijuana:

    See my earlier comments on drug decriminalization. Portugal has decriminalized all drugs and has not only seen drug crime take an extreme plunge, but likewise they've seen drug addiction decline. I would support a similar system to theirs.

    Education:

    Also not sure, though I do see a lot of positives that come from private vs. public schooling. If we're going to have a government system, the least they could do is provide school vouchers so that kids could choose where they go.

    I think we agree a lot more than either of us previously realized. Our main differences focus primarily around economic issues.

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  3. You're right. Most of the things that I labeled "Democrat" or "Socialist" are not even specific to what--in America--we call "liberal," mostly because in America we have a skewed idea of what "liberal" means. But that's another discussion. I labeled them as such because of what I saw on official party websites and opinions around the internet and people off of cyberspace.

    I do believe that people ought to turn to family members and churches and other legitimate means before turning to the government. Thank you for answering my question, by the way.

    You're right about many gangs centering around drugs. That is indisputable. However, the other side of it is that much of that money goes to help pay for rent and food for orphanages, widows, homeless shelters, etc. Yes, most of it ends up in the hands of wealthy drug lords. But helping the poor is often the impetus for starting the gang.

    You're right. Actually, 90% of the country agrees on 80% of issues, or at least on principle. The differences come down to how things ought to be done and where the government needs to send the money. It's really just the extremes that do most of the arguing and mudslinging. For example, I had a friend once say that Democrats don't like life which is not true. Most Democrats say they think abortion is wrong should only be an emergency opt-out but that they think that the government shouldn't stand in the way of a woman deciding what classifies as an emergency. It's just it usually comes out as "I'm Pro-Choice" instead of giving the full nuanced answer. Then it becomes easy for the other side of the argument to say "Well, you're Pro-Choice and therefore a baby-killer" which is not necessarily true either and ignores that there's varying degrees of moderacy in between the extreme positions.

    If we did more discussion about ideology instead of policy--which 90% of Americans actually know very little, only the soundbites from "news" sources and have NO idea how the system actually works--then we would have calmer or at least more productive conversation and we would realize that there's more that we agree than disagree. We should start more sentences with "I believe" than "Obama--or whoever--said or thinks." That's the purpose of this blog: biased but open discussion. So thank you for discussing :)

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  4. My pleasure. :)

    By the way, if you're interested in reading the words of (some of) the prophets concerning principles of Welfare (and also in distinguishing between Socialism/Communism and the United Order, which you more or less equated elsewhere), here are some links to that end:

    http://www.josephsmithforum.org/research/faqs/01-churchgovernment-welfare-what-is-the-difference-between-the-church-welfare-system-and-the-government-welfare-system-should-government-be-involved-in-welfare/#cite_note-16

    http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/09/guiding-principles-of-personal-and-family-welfare

    This one isn't about welfare, but the Constitution, so I thought it worthwhile to share, if only for number 7.17, which cites Heber J. Grant speaking during his time as President and Prophet of the Church regarding Communism: http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/latter-day-prophets-and-united-states-constitution/7-heber-j-grant

    This one requires that you hit ctrl+f and search "welfare": http://mormonquotes.com/Politics

    The third one especially: http://mormonquotes.com/Socialism

    http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=3163

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  5. http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=2797

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  6. I only have a couple things I can say to those sites: 1. Not everything an apostle (or even a prophet) says is necessarily from God. 2. Many of the other apostles were known to speak out against what these quotes say (especially during Elder Benson's time, N. Eldon Tanner was a Socialist) and had walked out of certain diatribes, even during Conference, showing their non-support for what was said. 3. What the apostles and prophets say now is more important to us than what they said then. What they're saying now is that "principles compatible with the Gospel are found in the platforms of all major political parties."

    As far as me equating United Order and Socialism elsewhere, you'd be hard-pressed to convince a Christian Socialist that they are all that different, no matter the quotes you threw at them.

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  7. Doctrinally, yes, they're different--that's all there is to it. In terms of settled, established doctrine, Communism/Socialism are not the United Order. There are key differences. To that end, read this lesson from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, paying special attention to section L-6, "The Lord's Way Versus The World's Way":

    http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/enrichments/enrichment-l-the-law-of-consecration-and-stewardship?lang=eng

    I'll quote from it as a brief primer in key differences between Communism/Socialism and the United Order, or in case you just decide to skip over it altogether (it is rather long, after all):

    "In more recent times Elder Marion G. Romney outlined the differences between the revealed system of the united order and the socialistic programs:

    "“(1) The cornerstone of the United Order is belief in God and acceptance of him as Lord of the earth and the author of the United Order.

    "“Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness.

    "“(2) The United Order is implemented by the voluntary free-will actions of men, evidenced by a consecration of all their property to the Church of God.

    "“… Socialism is implemented by external force, the power of the state.

    "“(3) … The United Order is operated upon the principle of private ownership and individual management.

    "“Thus in both implementation and ownership and management of property, the United Order preserves to men their God-given agency, while socialism deprives them of it.

    "“(4) The United Order is non-political.

    "“Socialism is political, both in theory and practice. It is thus exposed to, and riddled by, the corruption that plagues and finally destroys all political governments that undertake to abridge man’s agency.

    "“(5) A righteous people is a prerequisite to the United Order.

    "“Socialism argues that it as a system will eliminate the evils of the profit motive.

    "“The United Order exalts the poor and humbles the rich. In the process both are sanctified. The poor, released from the bondage and humiliating limitations of poverty, are enabled as free men to rise to their full potential, both temporally and spiritually. The rich, by consecration and by imparting of their surplus for the benefit of the poor, not by constraint but willingly as an act of free will, evidence that charity for their fellowmen characterized by Mormon as ‘the pure love of Christ.’ [Moroni 7:47.]” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1966, p. 97.)"

    In short, Communism/Socialism rely on a coercive state that strips individuals of their agency and is opposed to private ownership, while the United Order is wholly voluntary, preserving to the individual their agency, and relies upon private ownership. Please note that this from an official Church publication and is accessed on the Church's official website. True doctrine, here.

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    1. Again, I have very few things I can say to this. 1) I am not a Socialist. 2) You are an anti-Socialist quoting anti-Socialist publication about what Socialists believe. You would be hard-pressed to convince a Christian Socialist that socialism and United Order are all that different. 3) N Eldon Tanner was a Socialist. This statement "Socialism, wholly materialistic, is founded in the wisdom of men and not of God. Although all socialists may not be atheists, none of them in theory or practice seek the Lord to establish his righteousness"--I believe--is false.

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    2. For the record (again), I was quoting an official Church publication from the Church's official website, the content of which was a talk given by a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles at the request of the First Presidency to differentiate between Socialism/Communism and the United Order. Did you read anything I wrote, or have you just decided that whatever I say is wrong and therefore unfit for your time? I'm kind of sick of repeating myself, especially when what I'm saying is doctrinally correct.

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    3. I have read every word you've written. I've thought about it. I've reevaluated my own beliefs. I just don't believe as you do which as members of the church we are free to do with no effects on our activity or temple-attendance, especially on something as trivial as beliefs about Socialism.

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    4. That's fine, believe as you will, but don't confuse Socialism and the United Order, especially when the Church has gone to such lengths to differentiate between the two. Doctrinally, they're not the same. At this point, that's all I'm trying to get at. If you want to discuss Socialism/Communism further, let's not beat the proverbial dead horse of doctrine. I'm right, according to the Church. Whether or not you accept that is up to you (and won't affect your standing in the Church, as you correctly state), but please don't equate them in a Church setting, particularly if you're teaching, because teaching false doctrine isn't looked upon highly.

      I don't mean for that to sound snarky or judgmental, I just don't know how to word it differently. I hope it wasn't offensive.

      As for Christian Socialists not seeing a difference, that's their deal. Just because they don't see them as being all that different doesn't have any significance to the issue--the fact of the matter is that they're different for the reasons stated above. If they refuse to recognize those differences (which are fundamentally significant), then I have a hard time believing that they are any kind of open-minded, or have any interest in learning anything from anyone because they'd rather hold on to their preconceived notions.

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  8. As far as not everything that comes from a Prophet or Apostle's mouth being doctrine, you're absolutely right! I have no disagreement with that.

    However, I do disagree with your assertion that because truth can be found in every political party, it therefore follows that EVERYthing a given party advocates is right (or, at least, not at odds with eternal principles). While the Church is strictly politically neutral (that is, they don't endorse any specific party or candidate), that doesn't mean that the Church DOESN'T endorse eternal principles that have specific application to government and its proper role.

    One example of that is agency, regarding which both the standard works and the Brethren have repeatedly said (and continue to say) that to destroy the agency of man is the plan and intent of the Adversary (and is therefore evil) and has been from the beginning. However noble the intention to help the poor, the fact is that using the coercive power of the State to provide welfare for those in need is contrary to the eternal principle of agency, not to mention the Lord's teachings regarding the care and succor of the poor, which relies on individual agency, as opposed to governmental coercion.

    Another thing that the Prophets (and the scriptures, and the Lord...) have all endorsed is the Constitution of the United States. Not only do we read the Lord's acceptance of it (and His hand in its framing) in the Doctrine and Covenants, we also read that "anything more or less than this comes of evil." (D&C 98:5-7) Plus, in the dedicatory prayer of the Idaho Falls temple (doctrine much?), President George Albert Smith reaffirmed that the Constitution is based on eternal principles and that it is acceptable in the sight of the Lord as the most perfect and good form of human government ever conceived (I can provide that quote, too, if you're interested). What principles is the Constitution based on? Agency, for one. Individual liberty, limited government. It seems to me that all of these social programs (again, however noble) fall outside of the powers of government enumerated to it in the Constitution and in that "anything more or less than this" area spoken of by the Lord. The Constitution frames the kind of earthly government the Lord would have us have and Socialism (or Social Democracy or Communism or or or...) is foreign to that.

    Besides, to your point, just because people like N. Eldon Tanner were Socialists and actively displayed their non-approval of things that many of the more outspoken of the Brethren (Pres. Benson, for example) said doesn't mean that THEY were right, either: the original Apostles reproved Christ a time or two, does that mean that what Christ taught was wrong?

    By the way, the Church officially opposes Communism. It released a(n official) statement to that effect in the '50s.

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    1. 1) I did not assert that EVERYthing a party advocates is of God. Because there are "principles compatible with the gospel found in every major party" and every major party has disagreements about every other party, then we can assume that there are bits in at least most parties that are not compatible with the gospel. 2) Why are you trying to convince me that Government giving to the poor is of the devil? James E Faust supported it. That does not mean that I think that you can believe differently than me or him. But trying to convince me I'm wrong is a moot effort. 3) Constitution was based on agency for white, rich, male-landowners. It was a starting place that God inspired for America to build upon. 4)You are absolutely right that just because N Eldon Tanner is a Socialist and other apostles opposed Benson's diatribes does not make them correct (that sentence was awkward). I'm glad that we can agree that just because an apostle makes a statement about a belief does not make that stated belief eternal doctrine. 5) That's wonderful for the 50s. What the Church's standpoint now is what I have already quoted. "Principles compatible..." Again, I want to be VERY clear that I do not expect you to believe as I do. That is not the purpose of this discussion, it is not the purpose of this blog. The purpose is to promote tolerance and open discussion, like President Monson requested this last Conference.

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    2. 1) Okay, that's fine, and I agree. I've never meant to communicate that to be a good member of the Church, one must be a Republican, etc. etc. etc. 2) Why? Because it's doctrinally contrary to the Lord's plan. That's all. If either of us is unwilling to be open to the idea that we might possibly be wrong, then this discussion is a waste of time. I just happen to have eternal principles outlined by the Prophets and Apostles, the scriptures, and the Lord Himself backing me up. 3) False. What a ridiculous statement. The Constitution says nothing about freedom for only one sex, class, or race of people. Sure, it defines blacks as 3/5 of a person, but understood in its historical context, that was more about mathematics than racism--since the black population in the South was almost wholly slaves and since it far outnumbered the white population, if it came down to a state-by-state abolition of slavery (as later proposed by Douglas), slave-owners could've forced their slaves to vote in favor of slavery and slavery wouldn't have died out; defining slaves as 3/5 of a person meant that the voting power of the South to keep slavery was limited. Besides, even if you don't accept that bit of history, that 3/5 definition no longer matters, nor does it apply. I've never meant to assert that the Constitution was perfect as such, just that it's the MOST perfect form of human government ever conceived, that it was, in fact, inspired of God in its framing, and that it was accepted of God, who, speaking of the Constitution, said that it was "is justifiable before me ... And [that] as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil." Again, I'm just quoting scripture, that's all. Established doctrine? Correct? Well, I guess that depends on your testimony. 4) Nevertheless, they are eternal doctrines. Agency is God's plan. Bondage, coercion, slavery--all Satan's. 5) I was wrong, it was in the '30s, but whatever. Either way, it doesn't contradict what the Prophet is saying now, so your point is moot. Besides, the Church never retracted their (again, official) position on Communism, so it's reasonable to assume that they still view it as the greatest hindrance to the spread of the Gospel in all the earth.

      I have a hard time not sounding snarky or rude in political discourse (specifically when I feel like what I've said has been repeatedly ignored or not answered in any satisfactory manner), so I apologize if you've felt attacked or have been offended by anything I've said.

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    3. 1) Good. 2) Then I choose damnation. 3) Testimony of the Constitution? 4) Amen. 5) Socialism a hindrance to the spread of the Gospel?

      I also have a hard time not sounding snarky over the internet. Please forgive me.

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    4. By the way, your views on the Constitution are out of line with that of the modern prophets AND the scriptures. You should take that into serious consideration.

      Quoting the Church News, which is quoting President Benson (note: while he was President of the Church) during the Church's celebration of the 200 year anniversary of the ratification of the Constitution,

      "President Benson talked about the divine origin of the Constitution and urged members to study the document. He also urged Latter-day Saints to be actively involved in government. “We must become involved in civic affairs,” he declared. “As citizens of this republic we cannot do our duty and be idle spectators.”

      "President Benson pointed to several eternal principles relating to the significance of the Constitution. “The first basic principle is agency,” he said. “The central issue in that premortal council was, Shall the children of God have untrammeled agency to choose the course they should follow, whether good or evil, or should they be coerced and forced to be obedient?

      "“The second basic principle concerns the function and proper role of government.

      "“The third important principle pertains to the source of basic human rights. Rights are either God-given as part of the divine plan or they are granted by government as part of the political plan,” President Benson explained.

      "“The fourth basic principle we must understand is that people are superior to the governments they form,” he said, noting that “the fifth and final principle that is basic to our understanding of the Constitution is that governments should have only limited powers.” (Nov. 1987 Ensign, News of the Church)

      How do we know when a Prophet or Apostle is speaking the will of God? Good rules of thumb include when it's consistent with what past prophets and the scriptures teach (check); when he's speaking as an official representative of the Church (check); when it's not an isolated statement made by one Church leader at one point in time (check); and when it's said in General Conference (check).

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    5. George Albert Smith said in the dedicatory prayer (which is prepared beforehand by the guidance of the Spirit) of the Idaho Falls, Idaho temple when he was president of the Church:

      "Since the God of this choice land is Jesus Christ, we know that his philosophy of free agency should prevail here. Thou didst amply demonstrate this great principle to us by raising up wise men for the very purpose of giving us our constitutional form of government, concerning which thou hast said:

      ". . . I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of all flesh, according to just and holy principles; That every man may act in doctrine and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment. Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another. And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose. . . (D&C 101:77–80.)

      "There are those, our Heavenly Father, both within and without our borders, who would destroy the constitutional form of government which thou hast so magnanimously given us, and would replace it with a form that would curtail, if not altogether deprive, man of his free agency. We pray thee, therefore, that in all these matters thou wilt help us to conform our lives to thy desires, and that thou wilt sustain us in our resolve so to do. We pray thee that thou wilt inspire good and just men everywhere to be willing to sacrifice for, support, and uphold the Constitution and the government set up under it and thereby preserve for man his agency.

      "We thank thee that thou hast revealed to us that those who gave us our constitutional form of government were men wise in thy sight and that thou didst raise them up for the very purpose of putting forth that sacred document.

      "Wilt thou, O our Father, bless the Chief Executive of this land that his heart and will may be to preserve to us and our posterity the free institutions thy Constitution has provided. Wilt thou too bless the legislative and judicial branches of our government as well as the executive, that all may function fully and courageously in their respective branches completely independent of each other to the preservation of our constitutional form of government forever.

      "We pray that kings and rulers and the peoples of all nations under heaven may be persuaded of the blessings enjoyed by the people of this land by reason of their freedom under thy guidance and be constrained to adopt similar governmental systems, thus to fulfill the ancient prophecy of Isaiah that “. . . out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

      ( Source: “Dedicatory Prayer… Idaho Falls Temple” 564 )

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    6. I'm glad we both understand that we're not aiming to offend each other. :)

      And, yes, testimony of the Constitution. Every prophet (at least until Gordon B. Hinckley, I haven't actually looked up anything by Thomas S. Monson) has said something about the Constitution being from God (David O. McKay, for example, said that it was as much from God as the Ten Commandments).

      Also, not Socialism, Communism.

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  9. "What the apostles and prophets say now is more important to us than what they said then. What they're saying now is that "principles compatible with the Gospel are found in the platforms of all major political parties.""

    They've been saying that for a long time, and it's true. I'm not trying to say that you can't be a good member of the Church unless you're a Republican or a Libertarian or an active member of the Green party (no one party's platforms are based 100% in eternal principles)--but I don't subscribe to the false notion that your religion cannot inform your political philosophy.

    Regardless, it doesn't contradict what previous Prophets and Apostles have said, so it's irrelevant.

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  10. One last thing that I just thought of:

    Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk called "Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet" at a BYU devotional in 1981 (I think), which was twice quoted directly (including each of the fourteen points) in General Conference a couple years ago. Given that GC talks have to be approved by the Priesthood department and are of necessity organized by the inspiration of the Spirit, I have to believe that his talk--the principles he outlines--has serious doctrinal merit. Two of those points are that the prophet has the right to advise on civic matters and that the prophet tells us what we need to know, not necessarily what we want to know:

    "Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

    “Thou has declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear,” complained Nephi’s brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, “The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.” (1 Ne. 16:1–2.)

    Said President Harold B. Lee:

    “You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life … Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow … Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church.” (Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152–153.)

    But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. “Even in the Church,” said President Kimball, “many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterdays prophets and mentally stone the living ones.” (Instructor, 95:527.)

    Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or worry about their own affairs. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

    How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

    Said President Marion G. Romney, “It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets, but it is a greater thing to believe in the living prophets.” And then he gives this illustration:

    “One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, ‘Why did you come to America?’ ‘I am here because a prophet of God told me to come.’ ‘Who was the prophet?’ I continued. ‘Wilford Woodruff.’ ‘Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?’ ‘Yes, sir.’

    “Then came the sixty-four dollar question, ‘Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?’ His answer, ‘I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old-age assistance.’

    “Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living prophet of God.” (Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125.)"

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    1. Interesting. Yes, I believe in following the living prophet. If you're trying to convince me that being a Democrat or approaching GC talks critically--not skeptically--are wrong, then I'm sorry but you're approaching the wrong person.

      President Benson here is saying that those who disagree with the prophet on politics are going to hell. (If you think he is saying something different, let me know.) I reject that idea not only on personal grounds but on spiritual grounds as well. If that is what you are insinuating, then I don't know what to tell you. When what a dead prophet says contradicts what a living one says, then I will pray about it and probably go with the living prophet because--as Benson states in this talk--"The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet." Benson taught that Socialism and equal rights were of the devil and ought to be defeated. Monson teaches us to love each other and be tolerant of others' beliefs. You'll have to excuse me as I favor Monson's teachings over Benson's.

      Don't get me wrong, I do truly appreciate the conversation. It's fun and it gives me a reason to re-research stuff and reevaluate my beliefs.

      Also, I really, truly want this to be absolutely, 100%, explicitly clear. I do not believe that you ought to believe as I do. I have continued this discussion not as a means to conquer your beliefs but as a defense of mine. So far, I have not used quotes promoting "liberalism" by church leaders (which DO exist) because I do believe Conservatism is an acceptable belief system. You have stated your viewpoint--and backed it up with quotes and other evidence--that Liberalism is not acceptable before the Lord. (If that has not been your thesis, then please let me know what it has been.) I cannot agree with that, no matter what anybody says. If the Prophet tomorrow says that Liberals are going to hell, then I will have to reevaluate.

      PS--You keep quoting Benson. If everything that he preached was of the Gospel, then blacks are inferior to whites and the Civil Rights movement was just the beginning of the Communist take-over of the US and all members of the church ought to be members of the John Birch Society.

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    2. Please provide one quote where President Benson asserts in as many words that blacks are inferior to whites, or that women are inferior to men.

      Also, understand that President Benson saw the civil rights movement as a front for Communism--regardless of the fact that he was wrong about that, it doesn't follow that because he opposed the civil rights movement, he was therefore racist and viewed whites as inherently superior to blacks. What you're doing here is begging the question, a common logical fallacy that assumes a premise that is unproven. Your reasoning appears to follow this pattern:

      1) Only supporters of the civil rights and feminist movements support equality of rights for blacks and women.

      2) Ezra Taft Benson opposed the civil rights and feminist movements.

      3) Therefore, ETB was both a racist and a sexist who viewed blacks as less than human and thought that women should be left barefoot in the kitchen to do nothing with her life but cook, clean, have perfectly set hair, and produce babies every year until she's 40.

      Obviously, you don't state the premise (the first statement; that would be bald circular reasoning), but it's clearly the underlying assumption of your final statement in this reply. Similarly begging the question, many supporters of gay marriage vilify anyone who opposes them as bigots who routinely persecute and beat up homosexuals. That's a blatant misrepresentation of millions of Americans, including myself, and just isn't okay.

      Besides, this is a prophet of God we're talking about, one of the few men that stand at the head of the Church of whom Wilford Woodruff said, "the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty." You seem to view him with contempt, treating him as if he were some loathsome creature whose words (even, apparently, those spoken while acting in his capacity as the Lord's mouthpiece) unworthy of our consideration. I hardly think that's an appropriate attitude to take towards a Prophet of God.

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    3. President Benson says nothing that contradicts the words of our current Prophet, President Monson, in this talk, nor does he assert that in disagreeing with the Prophet politically an individual will go to hell. These aren't doctrines of salvation we're discussing here--in the end, the fact that we disagree politically is irrelevant, as is any political opinion, really--and any member can hold any political view he or she likes and still be in good standing with the Church, so long as it doesn't entail actively opposing or supporting groups that actively oppose the Church (that's a question that comes up in recommend interviews). Marion G. Romney (who Pres. Benson here quotes) is saying that anyone with that attitude--that of being obstinately opposed to the Prophet when the Prophet is speaking (as he implies President Grant was) in his capacity as the Lord's mouthpiece--is "ON THE WAY to apostasy," not that he's already apostate, or that he's as good as doomed to eternal damnation, but that he has an attitude of proud opposition to the Lord's anointed and that if he continues in that vein, he will eventually apostatize and give up his right to exaltation.

      Again, I don't believe, nor do I argue that anyone in the Church who is actively liberal is going to hell--that hasn't been my thesis. What I've been trying to argue is that, while there are truths to be found in every major political philosophy, it is worth our while to align our individual political philosophies as much as we possibly can with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the words of His Prophets and Apostles (especially those spoken in Conference), and His words that have been recorded in the scriptures. Whether we do or not probably isn't eternally significant and as such will probably not affect our salvation, but to do so, if nothing else, helps us to draw nearer to God. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie said, "there is no salvation in believing a false doctrine."

      A word about talks given in General Conference: in order to deliver an address in General Conference, anyone who is assigned to speak (including the Apostles and First Presidency and the Prophet himself) must write out their talk, submit it in its final draft to the Priesthood Department, which checks for doctrinally accuracy and then either approves it or sends it back for revision. Not only that, but it is requisite that each speaker seek the Spirit's inspiration in choosing a topic--no one is assigned a topic--and in writing the talk itself. So for two members of the Seventy to not only quote from, but strongly recommend that we each study this talk personally and in Family Home Evening, in one General Conference says to me that Heavenly Father sees a serious need for the members of His Church to be reminded of the significance of the words of His Prophet (and, considering again the process through which the Prophet and Apostles, etc., must go in order to address us in Conference, the Prophet's words ought to be especially significant in General Conference).

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  11. "...so long as it doesn't entail actively opposing or supporting groups that actively oppose the Church..."

    Sorry, that's supposed to say, "so long as it doesn't entail actively opposing the Church or supporting groups that actively oppose the Church..."

    Also, to clarify, I don't believe that aligning our political philosophies with the Gospel will align us with any one party. I consider myself a conservative libertarian (as opposed to a libertarian-leaning conservative), but I'm not registered with the Libertarian Party (though their platform more closely reflects my own political philosophy than the Republican Party, with whom I'm unfortunately registered).

    Lastly, let's not forget that for all the heated exchange here, we agree on more things than we disagree on, which I was pleasantly surprised to find. :)

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  12. I'm consolidating this down to one discussion line.

    On President Benson: That was not my thinking. Why would I think that? Like you said, it's bad logic.

    My logic was that he wrote the foreword to The Black Hammer: A Study of Black Power, Red Influence and White Alternatives by Wes Andrews and Clyde Dalton. Unfortunately, I cannot find an online copy and it appears to be out of print so I can't quote it. Yes, this is a weak statement. I willingly admit it.

    I do believe that he was a man of God. I also believe Brigham Young and Joseph Fielding Smith were, too, despite their blatant racism. All people have faults and just because a person is the prophet does not make them impervious to that, as we've already established.

    On General Conference Talks: No, I don't believe that they are necessarily 100% inspired of God. Like we've said, people are people no matter how spiritually-minded they are and will inevitably infuse their own opinions into their talks. This has been reiterated way too many times for me to ignore it.

    So, no. I don't believe what Elder Benson said on certain topics was necessarily inspired of God. I do believe he was called of God and that obviously he was the person God wanted in that place at that time, but that doesn't mean he was perfect, especially when the First Presidency denied what he said was doctrine and asked him to apologize to the Quorum of the Twelve for his remarks.

    Yes, God will remove a Prophet or Apostle that leads the Church astray. That doesn't mean that everything they say will be perfect or even correct. Their leadership and most of what they say will be what the world needs to hear at that time and they will--in general--steer the Church in a good direction. You'll have to excuse me as I don't believe Elder Benson's political diatribes are from God.

    On Socialism and Communism: You keep making the claim that the basis of Socialism is based off of bondage, coercion and slavery. You also make the claim that just because a Socialist can't see the difference doesn't mean that there's not a difference (which you are right). But did you ask a Socialist what they believe before you tried to convince me--a Democrat--that they're of the devil? Because if you haven't, then there's no ground to argue. That's like a Baptist convincing a Catholic that Mormons are evil.

    I'm not saying every Socialist or Communist government has been good. Obviously, the German Nationalist Socialists and the Russian Communists weren't. However, the Nationalist Socialists of India did amazing things. Also, I'm not saying I agree with every Socialist aspect. If I did, then I would be a Socialist.

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  13. Continued...

    On Bondage, Coercion and Slavery: Here are some things that have been on the platforms for Socialist and Communist parties in the past and present. Public education, racial and gender equality, child labor laws, anti-imperialism, democracy, nationalization of certain industries (like oil), national independence, diplomacy and demilitarization, fairer immigration and better social programs such as longer maternity and paternity leave and food stamps for those who could not afford to feed families and not be a prostitute. In short, the maximize agency for everyone instead of just a select few. You can talk about how taxing a rich person to give to the poor is inspired of Satan. I believe that our government is not exempt from Christ and King Benjamin's charge to feed the hungry. The church has stated that any position on this is an acceptable position and therefore not necessarily against doctrine.

    On Communism vs. United Order: Try explaining the difference to a Communist, especially a Christian one. I'm actually not disagreeing that there is a fundamental difference--one is run by God and the other by people--but the description of both is almost identical. A group of people get together and agree to pool resources for the benefit of everyone. A group of people get together and agree to pool resources for the benefit of everyone.

    So I guess you're right and the disagreement has been a disagreement of terms. Communism is a form of communal living. United Order is a form of communal living. In fact, they're so similar that the only difference is who distributes the resources, the bishop or the government. However, if "government" is defined as the group of people that govern and part of governing in a communal community (say that twenty times fast), then the bishop is acting in behalf of the United Order government. So the difference returns to if God is the focus or if people is the focus.

    On The Constitution: I agree that it's from the same source as the Ten Commandments. However, the Ten Commandments were given to be irrevocable and immutable (I like saying those words) and the Constitution was not. I disagree that it wasn't penned by (good and great) men that happened to be racist and sexist and--a lot of them--elitist. Yes, the Constitution was intended to maximize agency for everyone. However, it didn't. Blacks and other Non-White groups (including for some reason Irish) as well as women and the poor were not given the same rights as white, male landowners. Since its writing it's gotten better, though. I'm very grateful that God inspired the Founders to write in the ability to Amend it.

    I view the Constitution much as we've been taught to view the Bible: it's inspired of God but imperfect.

    On Agency: I believe that agency cannot be removed. It can be diminished and maximized. I believe that it can be infringed upon and left alone. But I do not believe that anybody can completely take away agency.

    On Doctrine: If you disagree with anything I've said here and how it relates to true principles, that's okay. I'm not trying to convince you. If I was, then I'd have thrown out quotes from multiple prophets and scriptures and church policies and articles backing up liberal ideas. I would claim that God sides with me. But that's directly contrary to the purpose of this blog and I don't believe that God necessarily sides on politics although there are obvious moments in history when He has.

    Again, you are totally welcome to disagree. Any position on what we've discussed is legitimate.

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